Re: tmart looking for ideas?
Reply #31 - Yesterday at 7:34pm Quote | Modify | Remove  Quote from JBLCENAFAN on Yesterday at 7:08pm:
I never understood Cornette complaining about how Sable made a limmion one year , after video sales , shirts , and Playboy , I assure you she made less in her paychecks that year than what she made for the company that year. I guess if you wanna be bitter or whatever that is great. But people just get the mob mentality on these things. Goldberg made alot of money in his short run but also made the company alot too! He invested it and still can pick and choose what he does and because he isn't selling gimmicks at a flea-market he is a no talent bum. Our heros are fighting for quarters in the parking lot and we HATE the people who SAVE their success!
 
 
Kenny Kendall replies:
 
I agree with what you're saying to a point, but I think this mentality has something to do with the lack of talent the people in question had, and how much money they made.  Part of the blame has to go to fans who chose to spend their money on people with no talent, buying all the gimmicks they had for sale, and ignoring the people who could really work.  
 
Goldberg had success because he was chosen by Bischoff to have success.  They could have made anyone with even the slightest bit of ability HUGE by giving them the kind of win streak they let him have, piping in pre-recorded Goldberg chants over the PA system, etc.  Raven had a hundred times the talent that Goldberg had.  Can you imagine if they let Raven go over on every single person that Goldberg went over on as well as giving Raven all the extra hype they spent to give to Goldberg?  
 
Unfortunately most people are easily fooled.  If they weren't they would have been choosing to watch Flair, Steamboat, and Funk instead of Hogan and The Ultimate Warrior.  Remember, NWA actually had national exposure before WWF did via Turner's Superstation. Starrcade happened before Wrestlemania.  
 
In closing, we hate the people that make it to the top based on a modicum of talent just because the people running the companies used all the money hyping and promoting people who looked like a million dollars despite having 2 cents worth of talent, while refusing to put any resources into marketing and promoting people with real talent despite maybe not having the best bodies or perfect looking faces.  You see the same in the music business all the time.

Re: tmart looking for ideas?
Reply #38 - Yesterday at 11:06pm Quote | Modify | Remove  Quote from JBLCENAFAN on Yesterday at 10:12pm:
It's the reason why Paul Heyman could make money with so many talented guys that Vince McMahon could never make money with.  Being a more talented booker is what enabled Paul Heyman to get "The Franchise" Shane Douglas, Raven, and "Mr. No Gimmicks Needed" Chris Candido over huge with the crowd and make money with these men while McMahon failed to get "Dean Douglas", Johnny Polo, and "Skip" over huge with the fans or make any money with them.  
 
No one bought the ECW ppvs enough to make a dent , Heyman had no legs to stand on against TNN , and he went under with most of his dream team still at his finger tips and being bankrolled by WWF who also gave him tv time to plug his shows. The Heyman Hustle still might sound good , but enough people have spoken out about the money issues and deal with ppvs to know that he was not a success and never really was. He screwed over some folks we have mentioned...  
I'd rather be a WWE jobber than ruin my credit drinking the Kool-aid...
 
 
Kenny Kendall replies:
 
You can't deny that those wrestlers, especially Douglas and Raven, were incredibly over in ECW.  Fans were coming to see them.  Money was being made with them.  If it hadn't, ECW never would have even gotten to the PPV level.    
 
Look at the progression that ECW made using guys that according to The WWF weren't marketable.  They grew to selling out The ECW Arena every 3 weeks.  Then they gradually started running shows in more and more states.  Before they even got to PPV level they were already running shows down in Florida.  Then they expanded west and ran shows in places like Dallas.  They went to pay per view level and went from selling 1,200 seats at Barely Legal to selling approximately 4,500 or 5,000 tickets at their biggest shows.  They did a PPV in California, they were pretty much nationwide.  
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "Heyman had no legs to stand on against TNN."  Against?  TNN was the network that they got their biggest TV deal with, not against.  But TNN failed ECW horribly.  Did you ever once see an advertisement for ECW's TV show on TNN except during the actual ECW show?   I never did.  Not one time did I see them run a single ad during another show advertising ECW's TV show.  You could have the greatest show in the world but if nobody knew it existed, nobody would watch it.  To make matters worse, TNN interfered with their content, not letting them air shows they had taped and mailed to TNN ready to be played.  They had to redo the shows, or edit large parts out making the show watered down.  TNN, The Nashville Network, had no experience in the pro wrestling business.  None.  Zero.  But they wanted to tell Paul Heyman what to put into his shows and what to take out of his shows.  If you recall, The first ECW show on TNN consisted of a replay of RVD vs. Jerry Lynn from a pay per view from quite a while ago.  The reason was that ECW wasn't allowed to run the show it prepared for its debut and was told about this so close to the day of the show's debut, they didn't have enough time to create a whole new show.
 
You mentioned Paul Heyman "still had his dream team" at this point, right up to the end.  Negative!  Right at the same time ECW was finally getting its TNN deal, The WWF lured away both ECW's World Heavyweight Champion Taz (one z) and ECW's World Tag Team Champions - The Dudley Boys!  Speaking of tag teams, another of ECW's most popular tag teams ever was gone because WCW had lured Perry Saturn of The Eliminators away with Ted Turner's vast supply of money.  Paul Heyman didn't have the benefit of being financed by someone else on a weekly basis the way WCW was or the way TNN is.  So they lost a lot of their best wrestlers.  They lost Chris Jericho.  They lost Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, and Chris Benoit. They had lost former 3 time ECW World Heavyweight Champion "The Franchise" Shane Douglas.  And during their run on TNN they lost CURRENT ECW World Heavyweight Champion Mike Awesome.  Could you tell me how that is the same thing as Heyman "still having his dream team?
 
This was the time they started having all their money problems, right around the time they got on TNN.  TNN didn't like their production and made ECW invest lots of money into expensive recording equipment.  I liked the original syndicated ECW shows just fine; I can't see what TNN's problem was with the TV production quality that had been in place from ECW's very beginning as a tiny independent right up to the practically nationwide promotion with pay oer views they had become.
 
What was that you said about "I'd rather be a WWE jobber than ruin my credit drinking the Kool-aid..."?  Fact is, it took Paul Heyman to show WCW and The WWF that these guys were very marketable.  Do you think Shane Douglas would have gotten a 1.9 million dollar 3 year contract from WCW with only his WWE credentials if he had never worked for ECW and been allowed to display the talent he showed in the years he worked there?  Not a chance. You couldn't deny the tremendous pops Shane Douglas and other ECW stars got from the fans in ECW, the most discriminating, hard to please fans in America at the time.  
 
It took Paul Heyman to show the big two that guys like Chris Jericho, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, and Chris Benoit were marketable people.  Did you know all of those guys worked for ECW before either WWF or WCW would sign any of them to contracts?  
 
Money problems near the end of ECW's existence can't possibly justify refusing to acknowledge all the accomplishments ECW made from their beginning to the height of their success and the salaries that formerly so-called unmarketable guys like Shane Douglas, Raven, The Dudleys, and RVD were able to command after their ECW tenure - the only place they had been allowed to show how talented they actually were.  
 
How about the tremendous influence ECW had on all of American pro wrestling during its existence which lasted almost the whole decade of the 90's?  Remember when Steve Austin debuted in The WWF as "The Ringmaster"?  He didn't exactly set the world on fire did he?  But look back to the time when Steve Austin worked for ECW and you will see distinct shades of the Stone Cold gimmick which went on to set records.  Austin did pretty well when he started using rough language, the likes of which had only been heard in ECW before.  Then he added drinking beer to his routine, something he saw The Sandman do when they were both in ECW.  The Sandman had been doing the beer drinking gimmick for quite some time before Austin even arrived in ECW though.  How about the increase in the physicality of WWF matches during what they called their "Attitude Era"?  Do you think their increasingly bloody and violent matches were possibly the result of getting the idea from ECW?  Kind of funny how WWF was blood free until several years into ECW's existence isn't it?  How about WWF's famous TLC matches?  Do you think they just might have possibly seen ECW using tables, ladders, and chairs in its matches for years, seen the way the fans got into it and then copied the idea? Possibly?
 
It's true that ECW came to an end because of money problems and that ECW declared bankruptcy still owing many of its wrestlers money, but the way you put it, none of ECW's accomplishments or influence on the sport amount to anything more than "Kool-aid" and don't merit any recognition for being the accomplishments they were.  To try to wipe out the years from 1993 to 2000 and all the classic ECW moments that left fans chanting "ECW! ECW!" whenever they'd see something that reminded them of all the wonderful memories ECW left us with by saying Paul Heyman "was not a success and never really was" and "I'd rather be a WWE jobber than ruin my credit drinking the Kool-aid..." my God!  What colossal myopia!  To just try to wipe out such an influential period of wrestling history and treat it as if it had no effect on pro wrestling or the lives of so many wrestlers is unbelievable.

I agree with some points , in the first Foley book he brings up his meetings with Vince and not liking the idea of being "Mason The Mutilator" he basically went home talked to his wife and came back with the name "Mankind" his ideas for music , promos , the mandible claw , etc. So while Douglas may have been "The Dean". He was also Shane Douglas in 1991 WWF and made no kind of impact. So sometimes bringing ideas to the table instead of complaining for years about the chance you got that 1000's of indy workers will never get makes no sense to me.
I never will give Heyman credit for blood and guts wrestling as I have seen magazine covers with Flair , Funk , and Dusty from the early 80's that Heyman can't hold a candle to. Florida was having bloodbaths quite often and The Original Sheik and Abby and Brody and so many others were doing color for decades.
Wrestlemania 10 was HBK vs Razor in the ladder match , before that there was a HBK vs Bret ladder match , before that we have ladder matches in the 70's from Stampede Wrestling. I think Cornette and Heyman saw a wide world of wrestling before most of us and the "net' age" so repeating good gimmicks would be what most of us would do.

Quote from nwascorpion on Jun 4^th, 2010, 3:27pm:

 
I agree with what you said here, especially this: "The 'E' tells someone what they are going to do and then they do it.  Most of the time it doesn't work."
 
Why did Chris Candido have to be a "Skip"?  Or Terry Taylor a "Red Rooster"?  Or have Dusty Rhodes in polka dots with a middle aged homely looking woman as his valet?  What was the point of "The Gobbledygooker"?  Why hire Shane Douglas from ECW where he was so over with the fans as "The FRanchise" Shane Douglas, a guy who got so much heat from the fans in this gimmick and instead of using what was proven to work, throw that all away, dress him up in baby blue colored tights and have him be a "Dean Douglas?"  Now they've got a midget wrestler running around as a Leprechaun who may or may not have supposed to have been Vince McMahon's illegitimate son.  I don't recall his name but I think he's still on TV using up valuable airtime.  Do you see what all these gimmicks have in common?  They're so cartoonish!  They're so far removed from being believable people.  And there is nothing about those gimmicks that a person would associate with being someone who would be especially tough or good at wrestling, or physically intimidating in any way.
 
Paul Heyman either allowed people to come up with gimmicks that were extensions of their personalities or he collaborated with a wrestler in coming up with ideas together for a gimmick as he and Shane Douglas did for "The Franchise."  If I recall correctly Heyman came up with the general idea of The Franchise character and Shane Douglas suggested some changes in the character that he was allowed to use.  And that's a very important thing right there, that a wrestler was "allowed" so much freedom in ECW!  ECW was about freedom, it was about rebelling against the current wrestling establishment In America which was controlled by "the big two - WWF and WCW - and offering fans an alternative to American mainstream wrestling and giving them something different.  Something edgy, with angles that appealed to a more mature audience that had outgrown the cartoonish gimmicks and storylines that WWF and WCW were offering.  Angles like Terry Funk overcoming all odds and becoming ECW World Heavyweight Champion on Barely Legal, ECW's first pay per view, or the angle where Raven turned The Sandman's own son, Tyler Fullington, against him were so emotionally charged and so well executed that they'll be talked about for generations to come.
 
That's why ECW was so much more than blood and guts.  If all people wanted to see was blood then CZW would have ruled!  JBL CENA fan, you said you'd never give any credit to Heyman for blood and guts wrestling because you saw magazine covers of Dusty, Flair, and Funk from the early 80's that Heyman couldn't hold a candle to. So it's a contest now of who bleeds the most?  If I wanted to take the discussion in that direction then you'd find that for sheer amount of blood loss, neither Dusty Rhodes and the others you mentioned from the early 80's or ECW would hold a candle to ECW because CZW had matches where they would use actual wheedwhacker.  One of their wrestlers almost lost his arm because of how badly it was cut up by the wheedwhacker his opponent used in him.  
 
From what I've seen you write so far in this discussion though, you seem blind to any of ECW's accomplishments or its influence on the industry in general.  And for what?  Because of financial problems that ECW ran into in its waning days?  Let's not forget that  the combination of Dusty's booking and Jim Crocket's lack of ability to manage finances led to a situation where Jim Crocket Promotions was going out of business, headed for bankruptcy, and forced to sell the company.  Do you then refuse to acknowledge anything good that ever happened in Crocket Promotions too, along with CWF (Florida wrestling), Georgia Championship Wrestling, and Bill Watts' Mid-South and UWF?  Or are you just arbitrarily holding ECW and Paul Heyman up to higher standards than all the others I just named along with The AWA and anyone else who ever had money problems forcing them to either go bankrupt or sell their business?
 
 

A lot of the CZW stuff boils down to stupidity. They want that "Oh $hit" reaction from the audience at the expense of their bodies. Unlike the legends of the past, these CZW guys and ROH guys won't be walking in 15 - 20 years because of decisions they made. I remember a lot of what happened in ECW, but the fans of today wouldn't be able to tell you anything about it. They had a machine running and it worked for the time when ECW was regional. It was when they branched out that they failed. I would not consider "The Franchise" a gimmick. It is an extension of his name. Just like Bret "The Hitman" Hart...just an extension of his name. When you drop the real name and make it a ridiculous name and costume, then that is a gimmick. I have more to say, but I'm not in the mood to type right now. Keep up the discussion

Quote from JBLCENAFAN on Jun 5^th, 2010, 7:25pm:

 
JBLCENAFAN, you talked about the leprechaun and told me he wasn't originally supposed to be McMahon's illegitimate son, but you never got around to the mentioning "Skip", "The Red Rooster", Rhodes in polka dots, throwing away the proven Franchise persona to instead make him "Dean Douglas." You glossed over the main point of  that whole paragraph which is how cartoonish WWE makes so many of their gimmicks whether the man given the gimmick has previously had success with a gimmick or a character which is just an extension of his own persona as in Rhodes' and Douglas' case, or whether it's a guy with a lot of talent but he's new to the business and they make him "Skip."  What do any of these gimmicks that WWE gave these people do to make you think they'd be a tough guy or a good wrestler, or even remotely intimidating?
 
I'd also be interested in your comments on CZW, seeing as you said you wouldn't give Heyman any credit for blood and guts wrestling because of magazine covers that had Dusty, Flair, and Funk on them in the 80's?  I didn't think it was a contest of who bleeds the most, but since that's what you implied with your comment of Heyman not being able to hold a candle to the pictures you saw, then I suppose how bloody a wrestler is must be the criteria you're going on because that's all you can tell from a picture; you can't tell how good the match was.  So do neither NWA or ECW hold a candle to CZW?
 
There's a point I made that I'd like your opinion on from my previous post:
 
If I recall correctly Heyman came up with the general idea of The Franchise character and Shane Douglas suggested some changes in the character that he was allowed to use.  And that's a very important thing right there, that a wrestler was "allowed" so much freedom in ECW!  ECW was about freedom, it was about rebelling against the current wrestling establishment In America which was controlled by "the big two - WWF and WCW - and offering fans an alternative to American mainstream wrestling and giving them something different.  Something edgy, with angles that appealed to a more mature audience that had outgrown the cartoonish gimmicks and storylines that WWF and WCW were offering.  Angles like Terry Funk overcoming all odds and becoming ECW World Heavyweight Champion on Barely Legal, ECW's first pay per view, or the angle where Raven turned The Sandman's own son, Tyler Fullington, against him were so emotionally charged and so well executed that they'll be talked about for generations to come.  
 
Also I really can't understand why you look at ECW so negatively.  Look at this quote from your post:
 
"ECW had lots of ups and downs , I'm not trying to be insulting I just don't ever remember Douglas drawing a dime. Tazz vs Sabu was the big program , afterwards was a build towards RVD being the face of the company and then it was all gone overnight."
 
That's how you describe 7 years of ECW?  I can tell you haven't watched much ECW; it's obvious in the following quote from you:
 
"Shane had a horrible macth as a face vs Bam Bam for the title , he dropped the belt to Tazz at a taping , he feuded with the Pitbull guy. When I think ECW it's Raven vs Dreamer , not a big Douglas program. He threw down the NWA title everyone here loves , he left right after that for WWF , hmmmm..."
 
You have your facts mixed up, and surprise, it's not in ECW's favor.  "Shane had a horrible match as a face vs. Bam Bam for the title"
 
Bigelow was the face.  Bigelow turned on The Triple Threat and then in a "surprise match" took the title from Douglas!  How would turning on the promotion's major heel stable make you a heel?  After a short reign by Bigelow, Douglas brought the title back to The Triple Threat at the November To Remember 1997  PPV.  As for the quality of the match; I liked it.  But that's subjective.  
 
"He dropped the belt to Tazz (sic) at a taping"
 
At a taping!?!?  Try the Guilty As Charged 1999 PPV!  Nice how you gloss over Douglas' title reign from November To Remember 1997 to Guilty As Charged 1999 without a word about it and then describe the title change on PPV as "a taping."  
 
Here's one more quote from your post:
 
"He threw down the NWA title everyone here loves , he left right after that for WWF , hmmmm..."
 
Untrue!  He didn't throw down the NWA title everyone here loves; he threw down the title of organization that had been dead, R.I.P. for the last seven years and had lost all relevance in the industry.  It was good for one thing at that point - to pull a swerve that made headlines around the world.  They took what little value that belt had left at that point and used it to add to the legend and lore that would become Extreme Championship Wrestling.  It was brilliant!  Then, contrary to what you said about Douglas leaving "right after that", Douglas continued to wrestle for ECW until mid-1995!  That's when he left for The WWF.  He stayed in The WWF for one year and then left The WWF to return to ECW because he had been making more in ECW than he was paid in The WWF, despite your belief he didn't draw a dime in ECW. Douglas remained in ECW from 1996 to 1999.
 
JBLCENAFAN, would you like to debate something else?  How about getting back to the original discussion about fans hating the guys who saved their money while cheering their heroes while those heroes work to tiny crowds for little money?  I'm finding it tedious constantly having to set the facts straight while discussing ECW with you - a subject that clearly isn't something you enjoy talking about or even respect.
 
 
 

Quote from nwascorpion on Jun 9^th, 2010, 10:19am:

 
Have you seen the RF Video shoot interview with Shane Douglas and Francine?  The first shoot they did with Shane, the one that came out as a two VHS tape set?  He talks about how WWF paid him when he worked for them in 1995.  It was less money than they aid him to be a jobber very early in his career when he worked there. He goes into it in a lot of detail.  They were paying him shockingly little in WWF in 1995.
 
Anyway, like you, I don't need to get into the exact numbers of what people were paid.  I just watched The Rise And Fall Of ECW again.  It's a surprisingly fair account of what really happened.  Far more fair than what JBLCENAFAN was being to them which is saying a lot considering it was released by WWE and they rewrite history any way they want to.  But they chose to give a surprisingly accurate account of what happened with quotes from many of the ECW wrestlers.  
 
There's one point of debate on that that I'd be interested in getting people's opinions on.  Near the end of the DVD various people give their reasons for why ECW didn't make it.  Vince McMahon feels that their big mistake was being too hardcore in their content.  He said that's fine when you're performing for  a regional audience but when you want to go national, you have to be less hardcore so that you appeal to the mainstream more.  He feels the excessive violence confined their audience to being a "niche audience."
 
What do you think?
 
I disagree with it for the reason that the region they started in and did most of their business in was the Philadelphia and New York area.  What's more American than New York and Philadelphia?  New York is the biggest city in the country and Philadelphia is approximately the 5th or 6th largest city in the country.  These are huge metropolitan areas with millions and millions of people scattered around the surrounding areas of New Jersey, upstate New York, western Pennsylvania, etc.  Why would the violence level of the product not offend those people, but somehow offend the people in cities like Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston?
 
I don't believe there's any reason why if a product isn't too hardcore for the northeast why it would be too hardcore for the other large metropolitan areas I named, or even the country in general.  MMA is violent as hell and yet The UFC doesn't run shows in Philadelphia or New York!  They run mostly in Vegas and Los Angeles and sell out arenas there.  They also get tons of PPV buys from all over the country.  last month's UFC PPV got 925,000 buys.  They've had several over a million, including one that sold 1.7 million.  WWE doesn't get nearly the amount of PPV buys as that violent UFC product does.

Quote from nwascorpion on Jun 11^th, 2010, 4:43pm:

 
My main question is really this:  If ECW wasn't too violent for the people who live in Pensylvania, New York, or places thy ran PPVs with 5,000 fans or so like Ohio and Louisiana, why would anyone think it was too violent for the rest of America?  
 
There were people on The Rise And Fall of ECW who claimed ECW failed because it was too hardcore or violent for a national audience.  Well, on what basis can anyone form a premise that for some magical reason, people from Pennsylvania and New York would want more violent entertainment than people in Florida, Texas, California?  The UFC is the most violent entertainment that is popular nationwide and they don't do far better in New York and Pennsylvania than other places in America.  The UFC can't even legally run shows in New York yet!  They are legal in most states though, and do great PPV buyrates on a national level, despite running most of their shows from Las Vegas and L.A.
 
Even though their homebase is Las Vegas, they have no trouble running shows in other states.  Fans accept them just as eagerly pretty much everywhere they run.  I see no evidence of territorial fanbases making it hard for UFC to successfully run shows outside of Las Vegas.  It's not exactly the same thing as pro wrestling, but it is nevertheless a very violent form of athletically based entertainment.
 
I see The UFC as proof that people enjoy violent entertainment all over the country - not just in Pennsylvania and New York.  ECW wasn't too violent to go nationwide.  They simply didn't have the massive amounts of money that WWE, WCW, and The UFC have to properly market their products nationwide.  The UFC was bought by Zuffa ( a wealthy company) in 2001, and lost money for years.  If Zuffa had Paul Heyman's budget they wouldn't have lasted.  Because Zuffa had the financial resources to afford to lose money for years and to still spend a lot of money marketing their product nationwide as well as paying the best performers in their industry allowed them to survive through the years when they lost money until they finally started making a profit.
 
 
 
 

Quote from JBLCENAFAN on Jun 12^th, 2010, 3:01pm:

 
Vince had to change what overnight?  The topic was ECW.  ECW did bend to get along with TNN, including buying very expensive equipment because TNN didn't like their production values. Nevermind it was those production values that had gotten ECW from a very small regional promotion performing in front of 80 or 100 people to getting on PPV and performing in front of the country.  TNN had no experience in the wrestling business though.  Some of their demands were ridiculous.  They didn't want any wrestler to say "I hate you" to another wrestler.  TNN said "The term we prefer is 'intense dislike."  Can you imagine a wrestler saying to his opponent "I have intense dislike for you"?  TNN ruined ECW with their demands and their refusal to advertise them during any show except during the ECW show itself.  How would that help ECW?  The people watching the ad already knew about ECW because they were watching it.  The people that didn't know ECW was on never saw any advertisements for ECW on other TNN shows because TNN didn't run any. How did ECW have a chance to succeed when TNN was doing that to them?  
 
Yes, you forgot many things.  We weren't talking about the number of times Douglas jobbed to Taz though.  I can think of three instances of that right now - the TV title, the ECW World Title at Guilty As Charged 1999, and the return match for the belt that Douglas received a week later in The ECW Arena. Why is it though, that every time you "forget" a fact it always comes out making ECW or the wrestler you're talking about look worse than the truth?  All your mistakes go in the same direction.  Do you blame that on sheer coincidence or prejudice against ECW?  See if you can remember to answer that.
 
Here are a couple other things I asked for your opinion on that you forgot:
 
"I'd also be interested in your comments on CZW, seeing as you said you wouldn't give Heyman any credit for blood and guts wrestling because of magazine covers that had Dusty, Flair, and Funk on them in the 80's?  I didn't think it was a contest of who bleeds the most, but since that's what you implied with your comment of Heyman not being able to hold a candle to the pictures you saw, then I suppose how bloody a wrestler is must be the criteria you're going on because that's all you can tell from a picture; you can't tell how good the match was.  So do neither NWA or ECW hold a candle to CZW?  
 
There's a point I made that I'd like your opinion on from my previous post:  
  
If I recall correctly Heyman came up with the general idea of The Franchise character and Shane Douglas suggested some changes in the character that he was allowed to use.  And that's a very important thing right there, that a wrestler was "allowed" so much freedom in ECW!  ECW was about freedom, it was about rebelling against the current wrestling establishment In America which was controlled by "the big two - WWF and WCW - and offering fans an alternative to American mainstream wrestling and giving them something different.  Something edgy, with angles that appealed to a more mature audience that had outgrown the cartoonish gimmicks and storylines that WWF and WCW were offering.  Angles like Terry Funk overcoming all odds and becoming ECW World Heavyweight Champion on Barely Legal, ECW's first pay per view, or the angle where Raven turned The Sandman's own son, Tyler Fullington, against him were so emotionally charged and so well executed that they'll be talked about for generations to come."  
 

Do you think their increasingly bloody and violent matches were possibly the result of getting the idea from ECW?  Kind of funny how WWF was blood free until several years into ECW's existence isn't it?  How about WWF's famous TLC matches?  Do you think they just might have possibly seen ECW using tables, ladders, and chairs in its matches for years, seen the way the fans got into it and then copied the idea? Possibly?  
 
The statement was "Do you think their increasingly bloody and violent matches were possibly the result of getting the idea from ECW?" That is what made me bring up the fact that people were bleeding and violent like Sheik , Dusty , and etc... I think entertainment as a whole became very violent around 1997 as Jerry Springer and others became more about socking someone in the face and becoming more vulgar , so as reality tv (which Springer was not , it's a work) and people started pushing the envelope it became more common. When I look at ECW and WWE I think they did put it more or the forefront , but as I said it had been done before. As Beulah and Kimona "came-out" and Dreamer was revealed as  the "daddy" it seemed very much like Maury Povach (sp?) or Springer. Come to think of it that storyline just went away.
I don't think it even an arguement on some points , but here goes...
Douglas , Candido , Raven might not have been big draws in WWE for whatever gimmicks or pushes or whatever , but come on... name any 15 guys who "never got the push" and FACT is Hogan , Warrior , Cena , Austin , Rock all did get monster pushes and drew more than any 10 combined. But what do you consider a big ECW star that really did draw money? The name ECW drew the money , just like WWE , this has been discussed for ages , both companies always put tickets on sale and then you would get the actual line-up announced later on.
TNA does that nowadays as well , the big billboards with AJ and Angle and they may or may not even work the event , the newest scam is Hogan being on all posters and never working house shows...

Quote from JBLCENAFAN on Jun 14^th, 2010, 5:52pm:

 
Again, you focus in on a tiny fraction of ECW's existence - the waning days of ECW when it was all but a foregone conclusion that the company was already finished - and ignore the important years.  Naturally of you look at ay company's absolute worst period you can make them look bad.  WWF gave ECW a loan that may have kept them in business for another 4 months or so.  So you're talking about late 1999/early 2000.
 
When I talk about "The Revolution" I think you know what I mean.  1993 was the beginning of the company when it called itself Eastern Championship Wrestling.  The Revolution obviously refers to throwing down The NWA belt in 1994 and the types of in ring action and angles that ECW presented to its fans throughout it's glory years of 1994, '95, '96, '97. '98, and the first half of 1999.  They presented wrestling you could not find anywhere else.  It was a true alternative to The WWF and WCW both in terms of the intensity of the wrestling action and the maturity of the storylines.  
 
Think of what WWF and WCW ere presenting before ECW.  Remember the cartoonish characters that the wrestlers had, the juvenile storylines, and the weak, uninspired wrestling matches that ended without a dropof blood being spilled or so much as a scratch on either opponent?  Enter the Rotten Brothers feud in ECW.  The first ever barwire baseball bat match held in America.  The first Tapei Death Match ever held.  There was nothing cartoonish about the feud.  It wasn't a plumber vs. a race car driver like you might see in The WWF.  There was no Doink The Clown or Gobblydygooker.  No.  Here was wrestling that an adult could get interested in.  Personal, bitter feuds culminating in some of the most brutal, realistic matches ever held to this day.  Of course not all the matches were about sheer brutality.  ECW brought us the first Eddie Guerrero vs. Dean Malenko matches.  We saw Chris Benoit become "The Crippler" Chris Benoit - a man who couldn't get hired fulltime by either The WWF or WCW until ECW gave him the opportunity in America to show what he could do.  The original Triple Threat was Shane Douglas, Dean Malenko, and Chris Benoit.  ECW brought the lucha style to America when neither WW or The WWF would show that style and such wrestlers as Psychosis and Rey Mysterio.  
 
ECW utilized world events and incorporated them into gimmicks and angles.  When an American kid was getting caned in Singapore and the American public was crying out "How can we let this happen" Paul Heyman was smart enough to have The Sandman carry a Singapore cane.  AS gang wars filled the urban streets, ECW had The Public Enemy feuding with The Gangstas.
 
The overall quality of what ECW presented to the fans had the fans chanting the initials "ECW! ECW!"  Name another American promotion to ever get fans to do that.  Even years after the company was gone, you could still hear fans chanting "ECW!" when they would see something that reminded them of what they had first seen in ECW.  
 
As time went on the angles got even more creative.  Tommy Dreamer vs. Raven is one of the greatest feuds in wrestling ever.  If you don't get it, if you can't appreciate the angles or the matches, perhaps the most succinct way I can wrap this up with is a slogan that was on one of ECW's most popular T-shirts:  "ECW: We're not for everybody."  Personally I like the Sandman t-shirt slogan of "ECW: Politically incorrect and damn proud of it."

Well, personally I was a WWF fan and a Hulkamaniac up until I stumbled upon WTBS running 3 - 4 minute NWA pro wrestling commercials in between their current broadcast of whatever was on. That had to be the most awesome thing I've ever seen and something that hooked me on the NWA/soon to be WCW. Being from central New York, we were harpooned with the WWF banner, so I love the over the top superhero gimmicks and all that. When I saw the NWA, it was the first time I was seeing double cage matches on TV and there being blood baths. They didn't need to use tables as steel chairs, chain, and chain link fence is what got them to hook me. Without the NWA and other smaller companies out there putting product on the TV, we never would have seen ECW. By the time ECCW became ECW, fans were growing away from the blood and guts and we were introduced to the over the top, colorful characters that we saw from 1991 - 1995. It was Tod Gordon and later Paul Heyman who decided that the fans wanted more blood and hardcore matches. Sure some of these guys were brought into ECW and showcased, but without WCW, we never would have seen "The Crippler" Chris Benoit. WCW actually brought that name into play back at either a COTC or a PPV when they showcased him  in the Light Heavyweight division and brought him down from Canada. WCW brought in newer guys from Japan and Mexico first. ECW just happened to utilize them while they were here. I won't deny ECW put them on the map because I enjoyed the most watching Rey Mysterio Jr. vs. Psychosis on ECW Hardcore TV back in 1995 - 96 era. But WCW deserves a lot of the credit into bringing these guys into the spotlight. I'm quite sure WCW couldn't bring them in full time because of working Visas and other aspects of outsiders coming into this country and trying to work. By the time ECW used them, the Visas could have become permanent or they could have become US citizens.  
 
I'm a fan of all the companies, so I'm hoping I'm adding to the conversation. I'm going by memory, not fact here. I just know WCW had a lot of influence on ECW's choices when the brass in WCW made stupid decisions and Paul Heyman saw the potential hatred these guys had for a company like WCW firing them over the phone or by FedEx. Paul Heyman was in the right place at the right time. That is all.